The Gentlemen Project Podcast
Podcast highlighting impactful stories of parents and what they do to be successful at home and at work. Helping you turn the time you have with your kids into time well spent helping them learn the most important lessons in life. The Gentlemen Project Podcast is hosted by Kirk Chugg and Cory Moore-friends who are passionate about fatherhood and raising the next generation of great kids.
The Gentlemen Project Podcast
Counterfeit Emotions, Nice vs. Kind, Guilt vs. Shame, Creating Healthy Boundaries for Yourself- A Masterclass with Curtis Morley
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Embark on an emotional journey with Curtis Morley, an entrepreneur and author who reveals the transformative power of differentiating between genuine emotions and their deceptive counterparts. Discover the art of recognizing true peace, the emotion that cannot be imitated, and navigating through "counterfeit emotions." Curtis shares his personal transformation following a lifetime of being the "nice guy". He sheds light on how to identify authentic feelings that foster meaningful connections with ourselves and others. Delve into the dynamics of relationships, where distinguishing between being "nice" and being "kind" exposes the difference between manipulation and genuine love. We also explore Curtis's five-step process for crafting conversations that not only connect but also facilitate healing and growth.
Take these lessons to heart and let the power of authentic kindness guide you in cultivating deeper, more fulfilling relationships in both personal and professional spheres.
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Exploring Counterfeit Emotions and Their Impact
Speaker 1Welcome to the gentlemen project podcast . I'm Corey Moore and I'm Kirk Chug .
Speaker 2Today , curtis Morley joins us in the podcast studio . Curtis and I met about six months ago when he came to a men's group that I belong to and he presented an amazing presentation that really spoke to me and it made sense . As he was saying it , I thought yes , yes , yes , yes . And so right after the meeting , I asked him if he'd be on the podcast . He got married . He's been on his honeymoon and we've got him in the podcast studio now . We're happy to have him . He is the author of the entrepreneurs paradox and working on multiple other books that are on the bestsellers list and not like the Amazon bestsellers list . These are the real bestsellers list , the Wall Street Journal bestseller . He is an expert on the subject matter that he talks on . He hosts retreats and business conferences where he teaches the things that you're going to hear about today . We couldn't be more excited to have Curtis Morley with us here today .
Speaker 3Welcome , curtis , thanks so much for having me on the show . Guys , Tell us quickly you just got married . Yes .
Speaker 2A month ago . Yes , and like you're glowing . If you follow Curtis on social media , you'd see like all of his posts with his new bride and they look like like a blissful couple .
Speaker 3It is amazing . I couldn't even be happier . So tell us about your family first . So yeah , like you said , just got married to Patty and she is the love of my life . She is incredible , kind , so good , just a pure , pure heart and beautiful . She's just everything that I'd ever even imagined . She has seven kids . I have five , so together we've got 12 . Wow , brady .
Speaker 2Bunch . Here we are , man . How's that going a month in , there's only four left at home .
Speaker 3So okay , so not quite , not quite the chaos of 12 , but you got 12 kids there Still adventurous , that's cool , that's awesome .
Speaker 1Well , you were telling us , well , you're going to be great for the podcast . You have so much experience with lots of kids , which is great . You were telling us , when we started the podcast , a little bit about your background . You really started as an entrepreneur , it sounds like , and then moved into teaching what we're going to talk about today and writing these books and having masterclasses . Give us a little bit about your background and how did you come to where you are today ?
Speaker 3Yeah , thanks , I did not expect to be here . I had , like you said , I've been a five times entrepreneur . I started multiple companies . I wrote the entrepreneur's paradox as I really wrote it for the 26 year old Curtis , because I made all of the mistakes that I teach people how not to make , and some of them I made two or three times just to make sure I got it . And it hit the Wall Street Journal bestseller list and my publisher . They said this is great , let's do a three book series . And so I was in the middle of writing my second business book , called the Timeline of Business .
Speaker 3What I find is , as I mentor and coach entrepreneurs to turn into rapid growth companies , is not only does everybody make the same mistakes , they actually make it at the same time , that there's a timeline that's laid out , that if you tell me where you're at , what mistake you're making today , I can pretty accurately predict what's coming next , because we all make these mistakes in order and we make these . I call them inflection points . There's these inflection points that can either skyrocket the business or sink the business , and they happen in a particular sequence . And so I was in the middle of writing that and , like we talked about . I just got married and the reason I wasn't previously married is because about five years ago , I got divorced and that that rocked my world and it was . It was the hardest thing I've ever gone through and and I I'm incredibly grateful for it , because it gave me a chance to say who is Curtis , who do I want to be ? It gave me a chance to really evaluate me , like dig into my soul and say , oh , I have made so many mistakes throughout my life . Who do I really want to be ? And ?
Speaker 3And I started learning these principles and I thought you know , why are these principles not out there ? The principle , specifically , of counterfeit emotions ? Why isn't this out there ? Why did I not learn this at home , at church and school , in the community ? You know how ? How is it that I've never learned this ? And I researched and researched , and researched , and the reason why is because it's not out there . They're the closest thing I found is a Buddhist teaching called near enemies and far enemies , and and the . It's okay if we just dive into it Go straight to counterfeit emotions .
Speaker 3This is the some of the adjoin my seat of what ?
Speaker 2I've been excited for .
Speaker 3So the premise of counterfeit emotions is that every authentic emotion , or every emotion that serves us , has a counterfeit , except for one . There's only one emotion that doesn't have a counterfeit , and is that love close like a charity .
Speaker 1No , no , it's peace .
Speaker 3Peace . Okay , peace is the only emotion that has no counterfeit and every other emotion . And let's talk about love . You know , we were taught throughout our lives opposite emotions . We're taught love , don't , hate , right . But we're not taught about that emotion that slides right up next to the original motion that puts on the clothing and masquerades as that emotion . So love and hate right . Hate is so easy to see because it's the opposite of love . But what about love and lust ? You can put your lips to someone else's lips in the spirit of giving , in the spirit of unity , in the spirit of togetherness , and you can do the exact same action in the spirit of taking or objectification , etc . And so it's really easy to see the opposites . The reason counterfeit emotions are so dangerous is because they look , act and feel like the original , authentic emotion , but they create destructive patterns of disconnection in our lives .
Speaker 1So talk to us about some of the the ones that we face most , maybe especially in the family . You know atmosphere like what's ? What are some of the counterfeit emotions that you would want our listeners to know about ?
Speaker 3Yeah , the . I think one of the key ones , and one that that we're pretty chronically , chronically unaware of when I say this one , it often just like shatters people's brains is the , the dyad , or the pairing of kind versus nice . It turns out that nice is actually the counterfeit of kind and I'm excited to dive into that . Some of the other ones are guilt versus shame . Guilt is actually a beautiful , healthy emotion . It's one of the most healthy emotions we can fill , and it's getting a bad rap in today's world . Guilt is getting such a bad rap . People are like oh , don't let him guilt you , and what a guilt trip . And what the really talking about is shame . Guilt says I did something wrong . Shame says I am wrong . Guilt said I made a mistake . Shame says my whole existence is a mistake and it's so damaging . If you look at the frequency , every emotion has a frequency . When I learned about frequencies and motion , I'm like this is fascinating . The lowest emotion that you can feel , the very bottom , is apathy . That's the very lowest emotion you can feel right up Well , not right above that , but fairly close is shame . It's it's on the bottom of the spectrum , in the negative zone . Believe it or not , guilt is actually in the positive .
Speaker 3And if you look at the word guilt , guilt actually comes from an old English word . The etymology of guilt comes from 1400 . The word comes from the 1400s and it comes from the word gilden , which actually means to repay or make whole . So the feeling of guilt is to make someone whole . The feeling of guilt is to is to say I did something wrong , I'm going to make reparations , I'm going to make it right . That's what guilt is . It's so , so healthy . Shame is the opposite . Some others that I love surrender versus resignation . Surrender says do your best and give God the rest . Resignation says that's not worth it , I'm not even going to try . But do you see how they feel and act and look like each other ? Yeah , they're so close and that's why they're so dangerous is that they are these sneaky , sneaky emotions that turn what you're feeling into this metastasized emotional cancer inside of your body and instead of feeling that enlightenment , feeling that beauty that comes from that , how many pairings of these are we got ?
Speaker 2nice versus kind , go versus shame , love versus loss , like how many ? How many are in this list that you have identified ? Yeah , is every emotion .
Speaker 3I ? I well , as you know , when we , when we originally got together with with the group that you're part of , we did the sticky note experiment , where we identified emotions . I literally have thousands of emotions . I store all of my emotions in a shelf in my office . I have thousands of emotions on sticky notes and I said , okay for a book , what are going to be the most critical ? And I've narrowed it down to 32 . So there's 32 dyads or pairings of emotions , yeah , like we talked about .
Speaker 3Another really important one is pain versus misery and and understanding the true nature of pain . I didn't know this my whole life . It took me till I was over 40 . Before I started understanding the nature of pain and if I can share just a little bit more of my backstory , please do I was in the middle of writing the second book , this business book , and it still hurts my really good friend all the way back from college I think it's important to say his name Jerry Williamson . He ended up taking his life and he had gone through sorry , he had gone through a divorce like I had , and he didn't understand the difference between pain and misery and guilt and shame . He didn't understand that and I believe that if he did , he would still be here today . I believe if he understood those two not even any of the others , just those two I think he would still be here . And I'm not okay with how he left us .
Speaker 3And that's when I called my publisher and I said you know what ? I need to write a different book . I need to write a very different book . It has nothing to do with business , it just has to do with what's going on inside . And today , in today's world , it's , it's insane , because we are right now , today , we're the highest recorded level of suicides ever in US history , greater than the Great Depression , greater than any other time . And I said I've got to do something , there has to be a way . And I believe that , with understanding these counterfeit emotions , that well , not I believe .
Speaker 3I know for a fact as of last Saturday , the previous Saturday , we did a conference . We do this conference called Safe to Feel , and there were three people . There were three people that came to that conference that came up afterwards and said today I was thinking of taking my life Thank you , I'm still here . And one was on a bridge the night before Looking over the freeway , condom lighting , jumping , and my partner , christy Holt . She runs a company called Vibonix , which is the coolest thing ever . It's an app that you can measure your emotions , you speak into it and it tells you what you're feeling .
Speaker 3Because we as a society , we as a culture , have you know , for years we were told shut our doors , shut our offices , shut our businesses , shut our churches , even cover your smile right . For years , we were told that , and what happened when we did that is we started to shut all of those things and shut our hearts . We stopped feeling , we started shutting down , and I believe that's one of the major reasons that we're where we're at today , and so so , yeah , that's that's part of my mission is to is to help people get into their authentic selves , help people understand this is authentic , this is the real me , and push aside the counterfeits that are so dangerous in their lives .
Speaker 2So you said that nice versus kind is going to be the number one thing that is going to change the relationships we have inside the four walls of our homes .
Speaker 3Of the counterfeit emotions , yeah .
Speaker 2And so let's talk . Can we talk a little bit more about that , like , how do we identify that ? What are the characteristics of nice and kind , and put some scenarios out there of why , why it's important and what we can do to make sure that we're experiencing the genuine emotion and not counterfeit ?
Speaker 3Yeah , I'd love that and it's . It's so funny because all our lives were taught to be nice , nice , right , and I think it's important even before we get into nice versus kind is to identify the four criteria , to know if you're feeling an authentic emotion or if you're feeling a counterfeit
Authentic Emotions and Their Criteria
Speaker 3emotion . And there's there's four criteria . They all in and shun , so they're easy to remember . The first is connection . Does this emotion connect me ? Does it connect me with myself , my true self , not my ego self , not my titles and my cars and house and fancy stuff and status , but does it connect me with my divine self , my true self ? Does it connect me with God ? Does it connect me with others ? Does it connect me with the truth ? So the first criteria is connection , and connection in those four ways . The second criteria is direction when does this emotion take me ? Where does it take me ? And if you look at all the authentic emotion , it plays out true in every case , that there's three directions . An authentic emotion will take you . It'll take you forward , it'll take you upward or it'll bring you together . Those are the the direction of a counter or , excuse me , an authentic emotion , not counterfeit , but this is fascinating . When , when I realized this about counterfeits .
Speaker 3If you look at the direction of a counterfeit emotion I did not expect this when I did the research counterfeit emotions , they only come back to themselves . The only direction a counterfeit emotion brings you is back to yourself . Anxiety breeds anxiety , you know . Suspicion breeds suspicion . Misery , misery I mean you think misery loves company , right ? Misery loves company . That's exactly it . It has to have more company or else it dies . Misery will die on its own without more misery . So it has to feed itself , it has to fuel itself , and the only direction that it that it moves in is a circle and it comes back to itself over and over again . Pain , you know . No pain , no gain , right , because pain takes you somewhere . Misery loves company because it just has to have more of it , of that destructive self , or else it just dies .
Speaker 2It's fascinating to think about that Like and that we've never heard it before .
Speaker 1Well you're giving you're giving a language to your emotion so that you can talk about them appropriately is really what you're doing , without actually acting . And taking the words and saying what am I feeling and then changing your feeling or understanding what you're doing so you can move forward right , so you can be appropriate . The words mean nothing . Who cares what misery versus pain , unless you take those words , you understand the difference and then you act on those differences right .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , yeah , exactly , exactly .
Speaker 1I think of the five love languages and it just gives you a language to talk to your spouse about . I don't know if you know that yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1It just gives you a language that this is much deeper than that . Yeah , this is like taking that to the next level and really trying to figure out how do I become the best person I can be . It gives you a vocabulary to do that and it kind of allows you to look inward and say what am I doing , what am I feeling and am I , am I being counterfeit right now ?
Speaker 3Yeah , if .
Speaker 1I'm being counterfeit . Let's change that into a different , appropriate , positive , for lack of better word . You can talk about this way better than I can . Positive emotion that allows me to move forward up , etc . Right .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 2So we have connection direction .
Speaker 3Connection direction and you hit on it perfectly is . The third is motivation . Okay , is what is my motivation behind this emotion ? And all of the authentic emotions are based in love and surrender , and those are two meta emotions , meaning that they flow through the other authentic emotions . You look at the counterfeit . The motivation behind a counterfeit emotion is fear and control . Fear and control . Every single time . It plays true in every one of the counterfeit emotions . Why am I in misery versus pain ? It's because I'm scared and I want to control this situation , because I don't know what to do rather than just accepting the pain and even honoring the pain .
Speaker 1And yeah , what you just talked about is huge for leadership . Quite frankly , all the I always tell our guys like the worst leaders are leading out of fear Right Fear or or they don't have self confidence .
Speaker 2They have to control everything .
Speaker 1Right . In fact I had a general . George Casey gave a speech to us at Cornell one time and he was talking about I said he gave us this huge list of what are the best leaders have . I said , well , what are the worst ? He said All the worst leaders . Don't have self confidence . The worst leaders , you're going to make mistakes , but you got to have like a inner sense of confidence , not fear . Anyway , fascinating stuff , keep going . I'm interrupting you .
Speaker 2The motivation motivation .
Speaker 3So number one connection to direction . Three is motivation and fourth is valuation . Is what is this emotion value me at and what does that value you at ? And if you look at the authentic emotions , the value is divide and worth it is . It's not just , hey , I have a job that pays this much or I have a house that's been this big , has nothing to do with that , it's worth that extends beyond this world . It's divine worth . And the counterfeits ? The counterfeits they , it's worthless . You are worthless and you're worth less . Meaning the comparison oh , I'm not , I'm not as handsome as Corey , or I'm not , as I don't drive the coolest car , or you know . It's this constant comparison , and comparison is the thief of joy . Absolutely , comparison is the thief of joy and that's what the counterfeit emotions
Exploring Guilt, Shame, and Empathy
Speaker 3do .
Speaker 3Going back to guilt versus shame , if we talk about guilt , that valuation , you know , if I come and do something that hurts you and I say , you know what my value is divine , but you know what Kirk's value is also divided , and so I have to value you . The base emotion of guilt is actually empathy . If I do something wrong to you , I have empathy enough for you that I say I don't want you to feel that way . That's why it's a high frequency of motion , is because it's based in empathy . You cannot have guilt without empathy . And so Getting into that , it says I value me enough to not do that and I value you enough to apologize and Like , if we just go through the four criteria connection , if I'm feeling guilt , I have to connect to you to apologize . I can't apologize without connecting right . I can't do that . I Connect to myself , I connect to God and then I connect to you and I say I am so sorry for what I've done . And it also connects you to the truth , because shame says , well , it's his fault anyway , you know , I kicked him in the shins , but he was . He was wearing a suit without a tie . How dare he do that ? Whatever silly thing it is , but that that Truth is also connected in guilt . The truth is I kicked you in the shins , you know what I Did , that I take responsibility for that and we move through that .
Speaker 3And Brené Brown , as well as a study out of Switzerland and University in Switzerland , both have done the research on this shame . It has a direct correlation to addiction , to bowling , to Sexual promiscuity , to I mean , you name the vices . Shame has a direct connection and that's not groundbreaking . That research has been done for years and years . The shame is that way . But these two groups did the other side , they did guilt , and what they found was guilt had a direct connection to get out of addiction , get out of bullying , get out of that .
Speaker 3It was fascinating to to read this , because you would think , wait a minute , shame gets me and guilt gets me out . That's amazing because all of a sudden , now I'm connecting , now I'm moving forward , I'm no longer , I'm no longer stymied by that thing that's weighing down on me because you don't get rid of it . It lives inside of you until you make reparations , you know . And and then with the Motivation , my motivation is because I love you , I'm sorry , because I love you , I love me and I love you and then the valuation says we're both of divine worth . Shame says the opposite . Shame says well , anybody that doesn't wear a tie with their suits , they're , they're jerks and I hate them .
Speaker 2And BMW drivers , and yeah whatever it is , yeah the crotch deal man .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , that says you're not of worth . All the authentic emotions say yes , you are of absolute worth .
Speaker 1I like what you said about addiction because , if you think about it , you have to be in the shame cycle . If , if you're in the guilt cycle , you do everything you just said , in the guilt cycle you can get out because you're gonna you can't you're not .
Speaker 1You're not gonna connect if you're in the same shame cycle . Yeah , and most people don't when they're in , when they're doing that kind of stuff , right , yeah , and you're not going to feel empathy . And so , yeah , I would say , most people who in , who are in some kind of addiction , whatever it is , could be anything . You can't get out of the shame cycle , like you said , and get into the connection , move forward . You can you explain it way better than I do , but I can . It just makes it so obvious and so easy to talk to , right , in my mind , everyone has to listen to your stuff and read your book when it comes , because it'll give them a language to talk about this super important stuff . It'll make you a better person , a better husband , a better parent , a better leader . So this is awesome .
Speaker 2I want to go back to to because you gave us the four criteria right , mm-hmm , before you talked about nice and kind . I want to go back to nice and kind because we didn't talk about nice and kind , yet and I that one , you know a guilt and shame or like on what you would perceive as like the negative side of things . But what's wrong with being nice , right , Right isn't that ?
Speaker 3I mean Bambi's best friend , ever since we were little kids , told us you know , if you can't say nothing nice , then don't say nothing at all . Right , and what it ? You know
Flaws of Being Nice, Importance of Boundaries
Speaker 3? All my life I bought into that . All my life I was like , okay , if I can't say anything nice , well then I'm gonna shut up , I'm gonna repress my emotions , I'm not gonna advocate for myself .
Speaker 3I mean , you think how damaging that statement is if you , if you can't say anything nice , well then shut up , like no , that is not , that is not healthy . But yet we think it is . You know , we're taught that from Disney movies . We're taught that as we grow up always being nice and and it's so interesting because Nice is , if you can imagine a pendulum swinging right and the ball at the end of the pendulum comes all the way up to the apex on On the left side , that's nice . And if we , we try and hold that up there for so long , we just we keep that and we use all our effort to be nice , we put on the smile , we don't express our true feelings , we're not honest with ourselves , we're not honest with others . It's fake in my case .
Speaker 3I'm just gonna introduce myself . I'm Curtis . I'm a recovering nice guy . In my case it was manipulative . My niceness was manipulative . I was creating covert contracts with people . I'm gonna do something nice for you and guess what ? You better do something nice back . I'm going to try and control your emotions with my niceness . I'm gonna be so dang nice to you that you can't be mean back , because I don't want that confrontation .
Speaker 3Nice always leans out , but it does it with a smile . You know , you got this great big smile . Hey , way over there . Hey , you over there . I'm smiling , we're happy . Okay , we're not gonna make a connection . See , ya , yeah , you think of the used car salesman . How nice are they ? Small talk , yeah , yeah , it's all surface , it's small talk , it's . You know , if you would ask anybody 10 years ago who is Curtis , they'd be like oh , he is the nicest guy you will ever meet .
Speaker 3I don't want to be nice anymore . I am choosing not to be nice . I'm choosing to be kind because with that ball that is hung up in that pendulum and we're keeping all that effort , well , as soon as we don't have any more effort to keep that nice up there , what happens ? It swings all the way to the other side . The opposite of nice is mean . And now that pendulum swung and you know , you hear about people breaking or cracking , or you know this super nice guy and all of a sudden now he yelled and oh wait a minute , I thought he was a nice guy .
Speaker 3And we think in this , in these it's very black and white , thinking that you either a nice or your mean . But the truth is , is there's a way to prevent the swings of that pendulum ? And if we find that we stop swinging that pendulum from nice to mean , when we're fine , center , that's where kind is kind is centered , because the opposite of uncentered is still uncentered . The opposite of nice is mean , you're still uncentered , you're still having to keep all that effort . But when you find center and you find kind , you don't have to have that effort To keep that ball hanging up in the air on either side . You , just you . Yeah , it's authentic if it's real .
Speaker 3It's , it's who you really are , and you don't have to try and and put on this persona of the nice guy . To translate this to parenthood and Time with your spouse . Yeah , so one thing , that nice guys , nice girls are chronic with Is not leaning in , not having hard conversations Nice says I don't want to rock the boat .
Speaker 3I'm gonna appease you . I'm gonna be the doormat . I'm not gonna share my feelings , I'm not gonna advocate for me and I'm especially not Going to Going to share feedback with you that might upset you , because I'm nice , translated to , I don't have the courage right now to do this kind Says . I'm gonna have a hard conversation with you in love . It's gonna be an absolutely in love , but it's gonna be a hard conversation . And and in my we talked a little bit about the masterclasses I do a 21 day transformative masterclass when at the end of the masterclass , we have what's called the big kind conversation .
Speaker 3And and Previously , before I learned the model , there's a five step model of how to go from the counterfeit into the authentic of nice versus kind , and in each of the dyads , each of the pairings had their own model , so a different model for each one . In nice versus kind , the . The first step is to know your boundaries and there's on on the website , there's a nice type assessment . You can actually figure out what type of nice you are . How nice are you ? What kind of nice are you Are ?
Speaker 3you , the people pleaser , are you boundary lists ? Are you the doormat ? You can find out what flavor of nice you are and and the first criteria in the model of how to get out of being nice and into kind is know your boundaries . And it's fascinating . I've done this exercise multiple times . I'll go into a room and I'll ask you know dozens , hundreds of people who can tell me one of their boundaries ? And I did an event with about 30 people the other day . One person raised their hand . One person raised their hand . I'm like great , what's one of your boundaries ? He's like well , only one . Really Like okay , what's that ? I won't do drugs . I'm like awesome .
Speaker 3You got that in junior high right the egg on the frying pan . Don't do drugs right on . Yeah , what are some of your other boundaries ? It's so rare to find someone that actually understands their boundaries .
Speaker 3It's so rare and we're not taught this when we're growing up . We're not taught what is a boundary . A boundary is something that says this is where I stop and you start . This is you know , you think of the boundaries of the United States . We have our borders , we have our boundaries , and understanding my identity , my individuation , understanding who I am and knowing the boundaries of what I will and will not do Are so important . To give an example of what a healthy boundary is . One of my boundaries now . Again , I'm a recovering nice guy , did not have this boundary in the past . One of my boundaries now is that I won't engage in destructive conversations .
Speaker 3I won't , I refuse to do it and and so understanding that that's a boundary of mine Is so healthy for me , but it's also healthy for others , because , truly , we train people how to treat us , and if we're constantly nice , remember the direction , how it spins back to ourselves . We have to keep being nice to , to have that persona . If we don't , if we don't keep that placating behavior , we don't get to , we don't get to be perceived as nice , and so . So , really understanding boundaries is so critical , and one thing that's important to know about boundaries Is you cannot set a boundary for someone else . This is absolute human nature . Like this is absolute human nature . Like If you do this , then I'm doing this . That's trying to say like , hey , canada , we really want Calgary , we're just going to swoop up here and now it's part of the United States . That would cause a war . Right , you can't do that . You can only set a boundary for you .
Speaker 3And so , going back to the boundary of destructive conversations , I won't have a conversation that's destructive . So if it starts to get to that , if there's name calling or raised voices or manipulation or anything like that , I'll call it out and I'll say , hey , I can tell that this conversation is not going to help our relationship and so , until it can . I'm going to need to excuse myself . Notice , I didn't say you need to shut up , you need to be quiet . I'm making a choice for me . My choice is not to engage , and so
Steps for Creating Connecting Conversations
Speaker 3that's .
Speaker 3The first one is boundaries . The second one is listen and validate . And this one it is so hard to do and this is one of the pieces that turns every conversation into a beautiful , connecting conversation is you can listen and validate anyone , even the emotional vampire , even to the chronic complainer , even to the bully , even to any of those personality types . You can listen and validate , and it's really important to know what you're validating . You don't validate the complaint . When somebody comes in and says , oh , can you believe Joe did this ? Oh , come join me and , let's you know , get on the bandwagon , let's beat up Joe . You can still validate the human behind that . You don't have to say I'm going to . Yeah , let's go beat up Joe together . Let's you know , I'm going to . No , you don't validate that , you validate the person . You can say things like oh , I can see how that affected you , I can see why that's so hard . It doesn't say Joe was right and I'm wrong , and you know it doesn't do any of that it just says I see you , I see you in your pain , so I'm going to listen to you , I'm going to validate you , I'm going to hear you , and so listening and validate Stephen Covey says he has a quote that says most people listen in order to respond rather than to understand .
Speaker 3And it's so true . It's so true . That was me , 100% is you ? You know you talk and I'm ready with my response as soon as you're done , and you might have only said a few words and I already have my response , rather than just trying to understand . And so nice . Nice doesn't sound like kind at all . Kind sounds like hey , tell me more . Even when somebody says something hard or something against you , can you imagine like somebody's coming to say oh , you're a jerk , and you say hey , tell me more . And they're like wait what ?
Speaker 2Yes , and tell me more about that .
Speaker 3I want to understand you . I want to understand why you're having this emotion . Because inside there's that divine worth and I know that you are divine , I'm divine . So let's get to that , let's get to that piece of it . So the second step is listening and validating . The third step is invite . And this one you thought step two was hard , the invite stage . And I say hard and jokingly because upfront it is upfront .
Speaker 3It's so outside the nature of the nice guy or the nice girl to do these steps , but when you get into it it actually turns every conversation into a beautiful connecting experience , like I used to . You know , I've been an entrepreneur . I would have these hard conversations and I'm going to put some titles on it hard , nasty conversations , you know . And I would just have this pit in my stomach , like you wouldn't know that from the outside you think , oh , he's got his composure and he's all put together all that . Inside I'm just tied up in knots and I'm just saying , oh , this is another one of those conversations .
Speaker 3Now , I'm excited about these conversations because I know every single one is going to be a connecting conversations . It's going to be a big , kind conversation instead of a big nasty conversation . And I'm truly excited because I know , at the very least , very bottom , that they are going to know that I heard them , that I saw them , that I understood who they were . And I'm going to dig . I'm going to say tell me more . I'm going to say I want to hear more about that , I want to understand . You , dig deeper . You know , I'm going to say things like that , that they're going to be like oh , you actually want to hear me . How cool is that ?
Speaker 2Pretty hard to fight with somebody like that .
Speaker 3Yeah , and I use this analogy , this is the super one of the boxing ring . Yeah , you walk into the building , right , and there's a boxing ring there , and the person has the gloves on , they've got their belt , their shorts , they're ready to go , and they just taunt you . They're like get in the ring with me , get in the ring , put your gloves on . And it's so easy to slide between the ropes and go toe to toe . And here's my argument boom , here's your argument , boom and punch , punch , punch . And there's a better way , and that way is to invite them out of the ring where they're trying to get you into the ring . You invite them out of the ring and even though I'm horrible at yoga , I imagine , like , here's the boxing ring and over here is the yoga studio , right , this place of peace , of growth , of abundance , of health . And instead of saying , yeah , I'm going to jump in and I'm going to toe for toe , punch for punch , argue with you . I'm going to invite you into a place of safety and peace and health and I'm going to stay here . And step four is surrender . So I'm going to invite you out of the ring . And at step four says surrender , I don't get to make your choices for you . I don't get to own your emotions , I don't get to do any of that . I get to invite you and if you accept that , wonderful , we're both going to be now in that space . We're both going to be in that space of health and safety and peace . And and that's the coolest thing , because you can do this with anyone , any personality type , even that dominant bully personality , you can do any of this .
Speaker 3The final step is repeat or release . So again , the steps are number one know your boundaries . Number two is listen and validate . Number three is invite . So invite them into a store . Give us , give us the how on the invite yeah , thank you , we didn't , we didn't go into that , thanks . So the how is there's ?
Speaker 3There's three steps in the invite . One is I'm going to invite you into the conversation , so saying things like would it be okay if we talked about this or would it be okay if we connected around this ? So notice I'm , I'm asking permission from that person . And if they say yes , then start having that conversation , listening and validating every step of the way . And once they know that you hear them , that you see them , that you love them , that's when you invite , not before and not after you've gone into the boxing ring .
Speaker 3Definitely don't do it . Then there , you're going to have no luck . If you were in the boxing ring and you make an invitation , they're going to be like punch the nose , punch the nose , you know uppercut and and so . But once they know , once they know you've they're seen , they're heard , then you can go into that and you can say okay , now that you've accepted the invitation into the conversation , now I'm going to invite you into a healthy behavior and a really good analogy . I was sharing this with a friend , this principle . I also do running clinics . I love to run , it's a passion of mine , and I do these clinics to teach people how to , how to run properly . You think , well , you just put one foot in front of the other right .
Speaker 3And , but there's a , there's dynamics that make it so much easier to run faster with less effort . It's , it's incredible . So we're I live down in Utah County and we're on the Murdoch Canal Trail , this beautiful running trail , and we just did this running clinic . My friend is running by me and I'm evaluating her form and all the different pieces , and coming the other way was this heavy set guy with the worst running form I've ever seen in my life , like horrible , horrible running form .
Speaker 3And you know the cartoon movies where the giant is lumbering back and forth from side to side and he's just like . I thought for sure , the closer we approached that his kneecaps were going to explode and we're going to be pelted with patella , shrapnel , and and he , as he's running up to us and we're running up to him , my friend looks over and she goes . So , going to be nice , we're going to be kind . And I'm like , yep , okay , here we go .
Exploring Nice vs. Kind Behavior
Speaker 3And you think about what would nice do ? Right , nice would see this guy that's literally damaging his body , the you see , this amazingly damaging behavior and maybe habit that he's involved in . What would nice do ?
Speaker 1Just say hi wave and keep going .
Speaker 3Yeah , big smile , wave hey have a great day , great run , see ya and zip on by . That's nice , that's like the epitome of nice . I see that you're hurting yourself . Right now . I don't have the courage , or I don't care enough about you , to actually stop and have that hard conversation with you . And Kind kind says you know what . I'm gonna invite you into this space of safety and peace and growth and Then I'm gonna give you , I'm gonna surrender , step four , surrender . I'm gonna surrender whatever you choose to do with that . And so so I did .
Speaker 3He was wearing this shirt that said Timpinogas half marathon and in my mind I'm thinking you ran 13 miles and like this , like how is that even possible ? And so I had run that same half marathon and I'm like , hey , did you run that ? And and he stops and he bends over . You know , hands on his knees , he's like oh , and just breathing heavy , and I could see the visible relief on his face . He's like , thank heavens he's nobody . Talk to me . Yeah , he's like whoo , I'm so glad . And I started building , I started listening to him and Validating him as a human . They are not validating his running behavior , but validating him as a human and his effort and the goodness inside of him . And it was so funny because , as I'm right about to make the invitation to a healthier way , my friend goes hey listen , he does running clinic . You want one ?
Speaker 2Could be invitation for you . Yeah , I was like two seconds away . He's a super nice guy .
Speaker 3And so is . This guy's name was Andrew . He was gonna go to medical school the next day in Chicago . He was gonna get on a flight and he looks up from his , you know , bent knee position and he looks up and he's like he goes . You would do that for me . And I said , yeah , we could just do a little mini clinic right here on the trail , take 10 , 15 minutes you know it's usually 45 , but let's just do a little quick one right here . And we did , and he Accepted that invitation . I said would you like that ? And he said yeah , and he goes . Nobody has ever Taught me how to run .
Speaker 2Nobody has ever told me how destructive the way I've been running is , kind , steps into that space , makes the invitation and invites that person in , nice smile and wave and hey that one guy , that one time that yeah , that's nice , but then also surrenders to , because I think a lot of people struggle with well , I did everything I could and they have to help themselves at some point . Yes , and you think that , well , maybe I did it wrong because they're not accepting my invitation . Yeah , right , but the surrender part is the repeat or surrender part is the surrender leaves the responsibility for their own actions in their court , and then you are okay with whatever decision they make , because you did your part right .
Speaker 3Exactly that's . I'm so glad you brought that up , because once I made the invitation hey , would you like to do a little mini-rank , like it was no longer mine ? I gave him the gift of an invitation . You think you don't take gifts back . You don't say , here , here's this gift and now I'm taking it back . Yeah , it's here's your invitation , it's yours . You get to do with it Whatever you want . You can punch me in the nose and say you call me fat and keep running . Or you can say , yeah , I would like to step into that space with you .
Speaker 3And the key is is that you do surrender that and then you repeat and or repeat or release . So the repeat part is if somebody isn't in the space , if they're not ready for that invitation , even after you've validated them and said this is , you know , I see you if they're still not in that space , then you repeat it , you come back to it , you repeat it and if , after a certain number of times , you see that that person is not going to accept that invitation , then you need to release . And it's so fascinating because you know I do these master classes and we've done it several times and what behavior that other people do when a person transitions from nice to kind , it's . It's absolutely predictable . The people that were taking advantage of you as a nice guy or a nice girl , they hate it . When you start setting boundaries , when you start inviting them out of the ring , they absolutely hate it . And what happens every single time this is just predictable every single time is that that person will either come on the journey with you or they'll leave your life and they want to stay in those unhealthy behaviors . And so they're either going to say , okay , I see that you're making this change , you know what , I'm gonna come with you on that journey .
Speaker 3And a lot of times people say I'm not going to . And it's fascinating because the feedback I get after my master classes is that I didn't realize how Toxic my group of friends were and how toxic I was in that group of friends , that I was playing the victim . Another name for the nice guy is the victim . And you think wait a minute , no , they're the happy . Oh , no , no , no , under the covers , the nice guy is the victim every time . Oh , I'm being taken advantage of , oh I'm . You know , I'm doing all this stuff and nobody's repaying me for all my niceness . You know , the victim is huge in that .
Speaker 1So you technically girls don't like the nice guy , they like the kind guy . Yes , there's a difference huge and nice guys really do finish last . They do finish last . You have to be a kind guy , and then you're good .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , I love so . True , actually it's so true . Yeah , it's so true , because I mean perfect nice guy Be could become the victim in any relationship quick .
Speaker 3Yeah , and they do , and they're like well , how are all these women getting the ? You know they're hooking up with these jerks and they're you know they're connecting with these . You know , and they go into that victim statement of you know I'm so nice , why aren't they ? Oh no , no , stop being nice .
Speaker 1We're not . So we're not talking about being mean . No , go out with the mean guy , but they should find the kind guy .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , that's good exactly and this topic is .
Speaker 2But , like , I think I could say for hours and talk to you about this , if people want more of this topic and they want to explore the different counterfeit emotions , the 32 core ones that you have identified , because , like , walk us through , like real , real short , I'll tell what I remember of the exercise that we went through . Like we wrote down Every good emotion that we could think of on a sticky note , yeah , right , every positive emotion . And then we wrote down every negative emotion and then we stuck them on the wall and there was like what , maybe 10 or 12 of us there , yeah , yeah , and the whole wall was covered and stuff . Well , there were only so many emotions that we could come up with . And now you've got thousands and thousands of these sticky notes and you keep them and Catalog them as like , oh , that might be a new emotion , and then you study that emotion .
Speaker 3Yeah yeah .
Speaker 2So If they want more of these like 32 core emotions because we've only touched on guilt , shame , nice kind . That was really the two that we covered today and almost an hour oh wow , look at that I know it doesn't feel as feels like it's been about 15 , 20 minutes . How do they , how did they check in Like have you got a website ? Where did they buy the book ? You're working on the counterfeit emotion book right now .
Speaker 2It's still being written , right yeah , so how can they check in with Curtis Morley ? How can they get more of this content ? Maybe we need to just have you back on the podcast like multiple times , and we can just be like we're going to tackle two more emotions today . Let's do it , let's do it . How do they do that ?
Speaker 3Yeah , the best way is to go to counterfeitemotionscom and you can sign up for the master classes as well . We're doing a conference called Safe to Feel and it's specifically targeted at youth and young adults and their parents , and that's going to be January 20th at Utah Valley University . So it's free . It's completely free for teens and young adults . It's $20 for parents . We've got some amazing speakers lined up . It's going to be incredible . So , yeah , for sure , safe to Feel conference . The Facebook group is where we're most active . So if you go to Facebook and look up counterfeit emotions , you'll see the counterfeit emotions logo . It's a blue and black logo and , yeah , that's where you can really get involved . But , yeah , to make these transformative changes because we're creatures of habit and we've developed habits over years and years , our entire lifetime the best thing that anyone could do is to join one of the master classes . Our next master class is going to be belonging versus fitting in , and that'll be November 29th and so , yeah , that'd be good for every teen in the world .
Speaker 2I wish we had more time . I want to talk . I want to tackle that one today because I think so many of our teens deal with that like the , the epidemic of loneliness . Yes , that a lot of our well I think a lot of adults feel , but so many of our kids feel like they just want to fit in Right and we say that and that just rolls right off our tongue . Well , I just want to fit in Right , but what's the difference between fitting in and belonging ?
Speaker 3in just a couple sentences . Belonging requires you to be your authentic self . Fitting in requires you to be just like everyone else .
Speaker 2There you go . No , he's so precise . I told you he was articulate , very good at making his point , and anyone who studies .
Speaker 1This is going to be better at living their life whatever they're doing so . I'm excited . I'm excited to go check out the master classes . I'm super excited for the book .
Speaker 2Thanks . Do you have an ETA on the book ?
Speaker 3I actually was going to publish it earlier . It was , it was planned to be published earlier , and I decided to take more of a Stephen Covey or an Adam Grant approach with their , their books and like Atomic Habits , and I'm going to actually be testing each one of these dyads in outside of my research . So research is one thing , my own experience is another thing , but then testing it as we do these master classes to see how it plays out in the real world and and fine tuning . So right now , the the book is just in that phase of testing and we'll probably launch it in May , either next year or the following year , just because that's Suicide Awareness Month and and so we want to make sure that we yeah , we help as many people as we can , that's . Do you do anything for companies ?
Speaker 1Like do you come in and speak to companies you know outside of the master classes ?
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , I do . Actually , it's funny . You asked that I was having a conversation with the CEO of a billion dollar company the other day and and he , he , we were talking about nice versus kindness . Like Curtis , where were you last week ? I just had all of my executives in the boardroom saying stop being nice . You guys , we have to stop being nice . Nice is indirect , nice beats around the bush . Nice is destructive to a company , kind as beautiful , hard conversations that are done in love and done with power and courage , because that's where the company needs to go . And so the answer to that is yes , often I get with different companies and and do mentoring and coaching that way , awesome .
Speaker 1At the end of the podcast , we ask everyone the same question , which is what does it mean to you to be a gentleman ? So maybe you could give us your off the cuff answer to that .
Speaker 3To be a gentleman would definitely be to be kind .
Speaker 2That's kind of what I was hoping you were going to say the short answer because we pretty much talked about the whole podcast and I'm like , yeah , we've touched on that , but we didn't ask the question .
Speaker 1So thanks for this is probably one of my favorite answers because we did talk about it the whole podcast , but it is a really good example of what a gentleman is as the hard conversations just isn't kind Right , and I was . One of my favorite favorite ways to think about a gentleman would be the way that Curtis explains being kind , because you actually care about people , you're being a gentleman .
Speaker 1Yeah , you're being bold in love . You're , you're kind of people . You're not a jerk in any way , shape or form . You're not going to fake it either . Yeah , and to me that really sits well with me as it relates to being a gentleman . So thank you , curtis , appreciate that .
Speaker 3You're welcome , thank you .
Speaker 2What a cool subject matter is something that we have not talked about on the podcast . Thank you for joining us . We're entering our fourth year of the podcast . That blow anybody else's mind but mine . It's awesome , Very cool of you to stick with
Call for Listener Support and Sharing
Speaker 2us . I know a lot of you listen to every episode that there is and look forward to our releases . We appreciate you sticking with us .
Speaker 2We would love it if you could go over to iTunes and drop us a rating and a review . That helps the algorithm where people find a good quality podcast that they can kind of check into and listen to on a regular basis . That's what you could do for us . We would love it if you would do so and share this with somebody . If a name popped into your head while you were listening to the podcast today and you thought they could really use this subject matter , make sure that you act on that prompting . Send them a link to the website or the podcast and make sure that they get to hear this too , because there's a reason why you thought of that person . Curtis , thank you for joining us today . Thank you so much , guys . Thanks everybody . Have a great day .
Speaker 1Go out there and be kind .
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